Brian: I'm still feeling a bit gutted really. I thought we'd have won at some time or another, and quite a lot of us would have got back into the dock. I appreciated that quite a lot of men didn't want to go back, so I didn't make any plans. I'm in a little bit of a limbo. Until the pension issue is sorted out, I don't know exactly where I stand financially.
And I'm sad that it ended the way it did, because I still felt that the dispute was winnable. I know that the international support had waned, but I was in possession of a fax you sent to me highlighting some other actions that were going to take place in other parts of the world. The Dock Company were telling us that everything was hunky dory, but now they're letting it be known that they would take on certain qualified men, and it's also known that Drakes isn't giving them the service that they want. According to our shop stewards it seems like they're screwing the Dock Company. I reckon if that's the case it was only a matter of time before the Company would have had to reappraise the whole situation and start talking to us.
Greg: In the closing stages of the dispute men were dying.
Brian: Yeah, I think that had a terrific psychological effect on us, and there were men who wanted the whole dispute over with, to get on with their lives as they said. But when the dispute was called off by a 3 to 1 majority, nobody was jubilant. In fact everybody was very sombre. Some were crying, upset, and they realised what they'd done by voting and so one lesson is that you've got to pull all the stops out and try and win it as soon as you possibly can.
After the ballot in October, a number of people decided to take up the offer invidually.
Brian: Yeah, I'm actually surprised that the Dock Company didn't do something like that sooner. No matter what the state of play, there were some men who were going to go for that option, and with the fact that it dragged on for 2 1/2 years it only increased the numbers. But I think we've got to take heart from the fact that the number of men who took the Dock Board's payoff, it wasn't a very high figure really. After Christmas and the deaths of the two lads we were going to see a steady drift, and I think the stewards could sense that and obviously they had to do something positive. It was either to try and get more calls for solidarity action, or take the way out that they did. Now in their wisdom they chose to go along the road of calling it a day, so that people wouldn't lose everything. I think they should have gone the other road, tried to get solidarity. Where we really needed the solidarity was from the workers in this city and in this country.
What concrete possibilities were there for developing solidarity action, as opposed to solidarity donations which you were getting?
Brian: I used to speak at lots of meetings and stress the fact that the donations were great, and that kept us from being starved into submission, but it was necessary to provide solidarity action. People used to ask me what kind of actions? So I said anybody who had anything related with the docks industry, transport or stuffing containers and things like that, should start blacking them. And people were asking me could I identify any things that go through the docks. So there were people who were interested.
People wanted us to win this dispute, they were so discontented in their own workplaces, with the directions of their own leaderships, that they felt we could win and they wanted us to win, and felt that the country needed it. And I think that had we pushed hard enough, and told these people, and showed them, I think we could have got the action that we needed.
The question is, were they prepared to risk their jobs because that is what it came down to, were they prepared to do what you did yourselves? You could have said to Torside "we support you, and we're willing to give you money but we're not prepared to lose our jobs so we're going to cross the picket line". You didn't say that. Were the people you were addressing saying "yeah, I'm ready to go to the limit on this"?
Brian: Quite a lot were, but the majority were still not prepared to take that action, because of a lack of confidence at the moment. Thatcher really bashed the unions, she took the confidence away from people, and Blair's carrying on with the same policies. So people do need confidence, and the only way they'll get it is by somebody winning a victory. Unfortunately we're out of it now, but we still have another couple of disputes going, we've got Magnet
That's right, but you couldn't win the victory without some of them actually deciding to act. They may have thought that you could win without them taking the risk, but in reality you couldn't.
Brian: You couldn't, no. You know talking about people saying they'd lose their jobs. If enough people supported each other, well they can't sack everybody. It doesn't have to be a General Strike but involving key areas of the economy, people like lorry drivers and people who control the economic strength of the country, the Government would have to give in and they'd have to do something about this. If people supported each other one of the conditions would have to be that all people who were sacked as a result of solidarity action would be reinstated.
So you were putting these arguments as you went round the country.
Brian: I did get people who would ask me "well what can we do?" and then particularly the Manchester Support Group were always asking us to identify things they could take action against. I think they asked the stewards a number of times. But they never got concrete answers.
On the one hand the stewards used to say "we want solidarity action", and then they used to say "we don't want people to get sacked as a result of supporting us". So, you can't have one of the two, people have either got to lay their jobs on the line and take action on your behalf
and on their own behalf as well
Brian: and on their own behalf is right.
In other countries people definitely did take big risks, and people may suffer as a result. They're grown men and they knew what they were doing, but it was a real risk and we'll see what happens. If you think there was a reluctance to push people in this country to take those risks, why were people in other countries encouraged to take the risks?
Brian: It was a way of getting round the anti-trade union laws in this country by asking people in other countries because they couldn't really take them to court although they could sue them which they did in the case of Bowers (International Longshoremen's Association President). But I think also the docks industry throughout the world is under attack, and they're definitely out to break the power of the unions in all the ports, because we've shown in the past the strength that we had. Dockworkers realised that it was us now and it was them next. And this has proved to be the case, as you know by the Australian dockers with Patrick, the Government there is out to smash the MUA. And similar to Thatcher, she took on the miners who were the strongest, she took on the printers who were really strong. And he's identified the MUA as being the strongest union in Australia and he's out to smash them. And frankly I'm very surprised that all the ports in Australia haven't actually stopped.
They may come to that.
Brian: Yeah, but I think that these dockers who are locked out now shouldn't be making the mistake that we made, and should be pushing and pushing for solidarity action from the other ports and the TUC as well in Australia, I don't know what they call it
ACTU
Brian: They issued a statement which said that if the Government use troops in any of the ports, that they would call a General Strike. And from what I can gather the mercenaries that are being trained to do the dockers jobs in Melbourne, some of these do involve soldiers although they're not letting it be known that they are soldiers. So I think a message for the dockers in Melbourne is to push and push, to get the TUC to honour that committment they made and to get the rest of the dockers in Australia to support them and finally to force their union bureaucrats to go to the ITF and call a world-wide shipping ban, and make sure it's not a patchy one like we had but a really solid ban on cargoes to and from Australia.
Just from what I understand the MUA is working very closely with the ITF and the ITF is being much more supportive of them than they were of yourselves. Because I think the President of the MUA has taken a very different approach to it from what Bill Morris did.
Brian: That's right, Bill Morris had the key in his hand, and he claims to be on the side of the workers. He claims to want social justice and justice in the workplace, and yet the actions went the opposite way. He was actually asking the ITF not to take action, and this has undone all the hard work that the dockers and the stewards had done in drawing up this support.
There was a stage maybe a year ago when some people argued that the international action was a kind of diversion from what needed to happen in this country. I didn't agree with them. What's your view?
Brian: No, I don't think so neither, because admittedly people were shipping through the Port of Liverpool and admittedly the goods had to be delivered here and taken away in containers, and it would have brilliant if we could get those people to support us. But, lorry drivers in particular have never been noted for their militancy so maybe we couldn't expect that. The rest of the ports around the country were casualised in 1989 when they did away with the Dock Labour Scheme. Most of them had casual workers, no history of struggle. Consequently we couldn't go to them for support. We had to go abroad, and I think it was a brilliant strategy, I think we built it up tremendous, and to me they've been the highlight of my life to know the support that's come from abroad, to know that we had people in other countries that were prepared to take action on our behalf. Had we got back inside I did suggest that we should be going round this country, and getting the casual workers back into the union, get them politicised, and try and build up the shop stewards movement that we had in the days before 1989 when the unions had more or less been kicked out the docks.
You said earlier that one of the lessons of this was that you needed a strategy for moving a dispute on faster, that it went on too long. Let's take it back to the start. With hindsight, were you right to refuse to cross the picket line?
Brian: Yeah, morally we were right, but I think also we could have approached it from a different way. We could have asked the Torside lads to hold back from putting up a picket line. For us to go into work as normal, for the drivers to get into their straddle carriers, carry containers and block off all the entrances and exits to the docks, especially Seaforth, and occupy the place so that no work could get carried on, and no scabs because they'd have been in there with us. The gantries would have been under our control, the straddle carriers would have been under our control, and whether the ships came in or not, there's nobody to do the work. That's with hindsight, if I was to look at the whole situation again, that's the way I think it could have been handled.
We were getting attacked by the Dock Company, and we knew that sometime or other there was going to be a confrontation. And if it hadn't been about Torside, it'd have been about something else. Because we'd had a series of incidents where every man was disciplined over the Christmas period. Every single man, fellas who'd worked there over 20, 30, 40 years with no blot on their records. They were determined to get rid of us by some means or other. We should have realised this and had our strategy, even before we took the actions that we took.
So you're not talking about an occupation after the sacking, you're talking about a sit-in.
Brian: The sit-in could have happened after the Torside lads were sacked. But they were also looking to sack somebody amongst our own numbers. They were going to make about 100 men redundant, compulsory redundant, because these men in their words were "untrainable".
When was this?
Brian: Just before the Torside were sacked.
But amongst the Mersey Docks workforce?
Brian: That's right, they sent every man for a medical to see whether they were fit enough to drive straddle carriers, or gantries, and things like that. Well as you know, not every man has got the qualities needed to drive one of those. I personally could drive a fork-lift truck, I was a checker, I could do most types of dock work. But I had a dread of driving a straddle carrier. So according to the Dock Company, I was then untrainable. They wanted me to be able to drive a straddle carrier, and a gantry. So they'd identified a hundred men that they wanted to get rid of. I would have been one of those, I imagine. Now, they were going to make those men compulsory redundant and we should have had our strategy planned out and been ready for it.
When people mention the idea that occupation would have been a better strategy, I thought they were talking about it after you were all locked out. Do you think it was a viable strategy then?
Brian: Once we were locked out, we'd have found it hard to get back in there.
I reckoned the police would basically come in and blow you out of there.
Brian: Yeah, we'd never have got near the place, but I mean this is where I say we should have had our strategy planned beforehand.
Do you think there was a way to move faster once you were locked out?
Brian: We acted pretty fast going abroad and getting the solidarity action, and we were learning as we went along. We had the heady days where countries were telling us they were going to support us, come what may, and then to our dismay we found out that alot of it was just promises. I don't really think we could have moved it on any quicker than we did. But if there is a way to end a dispute quickly, I think that's the line you've got to go along. Because it's been proved by this line, by us, that the lads become disillusioned and they lose the will to win in the end.
But a little earlier you were saying there were possibilities for solidarity action that weren't pursued far enough, so you must have thought that it was still winnable at that stage.
Brian: I think that the calls for solidarity action in this country actually came a little late, and also it did fall on deaf ears a lot. We called meetings of stewards from the various industries, and they showed their apathy by not turning up. Back when the dockers were jailed over the Pentonville Five, more or less the whole country stopped work.
But that was a different time.
Brian: That was different. But I think this should have happened here in Liverpool, at least in Merseyside. As soon as we were sacked, if Ford workers, and workers over in Vauxhalls and the other big factories had downed tools immediately, I think the shock waves would have been tremendous.
I think that's true, but it's not an accident that they didn't. I don't think that it's in any way the fault of yourselves or the stewards that other workers weren't anywhere near doing it then. The question is a little later on, when people had woken up to what the dispute was about. At the union's Biennial Delegate Conference people were very angry, and maybe there were some possibilities then that didn't exist at the beginning when people were just down on the floor. You actually helped to raise them up so they had much more confidence.
Brian: Yeah, I agree with that, and as I say it still comes down to confidence. The workers today haven't got the confidence yet to take up the cudgels and fight back, and what's going to bring that confidence I don't know, but you can only take so much, and I think the people in this country have taken quite a lot during the last 17 years, and I think they're feeling rather depressed now when we've got a change of government. People didn't vote Labour for the same policies to carry on. They voted Labour for a complete change of direction. And they find now that we're going in the same direction, and there is going to come a breaking point, and the honeymoon is over for Blair because lots and lots more MPs are expressing their disquiet. And when I speak to people, I still do a few meetings relating to our dispute, they also share that same disquiet. So I imagine that eventually it's going to reflect in the workplace.
What do you think the legacy of your dispute is going to be? Will people say "oh, another failure" or have workers in this country or internationally gained something?
Brian: Yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons to be learned and one is the way we supported each other, ourselves, our families, the way we stood by each other. We became one big family in actual fact. I think in years to come it will be a similar situation to the miners. People say "we should have stood by the miners, we should have gone on strike for them". And I think in years to come, they'll be talking about the brilliant struggle that we put up, about the international action that we achieved, and at the end of the day they'll say "but really, we should have stood by them". And that's the whole message, without that solidarity action most disputes of this nature are unwinnable.
One of the distinctive things about this dispute was the very high level of involvement of rank and file dockers and also the Women of the Waterfront. It was an extremely active dispute.
Brian: It was actually. I was on the docks for 28 years and I've never been actively involved as I was in this dispute. We've had disputes and the stewards did what they had to do, and I was quite happy to let them do that. But I think in this dispute there was such a sense of injustice about the way it happened, not only with us but with our families and the events prior to this, what was happening to us, the phone calls, changing our shifts, calling us in at all kinds of unusual hours. When we were on our day off, changing our shifts to nights on the day before so our whole family lives were disrupted. And the women have said it many times, and I do agree with them, had those women known each other, they would have been campaigning long before this dispute started, because they robbed us of our family life, our social life, and we were just becoming morons. And I think that was part of the strategy to demoralise us and to make us think we couldn't fight. There was the injustice of our sacking, but it was what they'd done to us beforehand as well, and we thought "well we're going to get these" and that's why.
I'd never spoken at meetings, but I had been involved in things like Church groups, or I'd been asked to read things for people, but I'd never actually spoken at meetings with hundreds or thousands of people. But it was something I felt that I had to do. I mentioned before that you're either in a battle to win or you've got to accept defeat. And I felt that I was in that battle to win, consequently I must do as much as I can by going round talking to people, drumming up solidarity, raising funds, and raising awareness.
People like yourself who were doing that, were they generally more optimistic about what was possible?
Brian: I would say they were, yeah, and another thing that drove us on was to see the people that we met, how much they wanted us to win this dispute, and what quite a lot of them were prepared to do for us. That spurred us on, and I used to say, it became a cliché with me, people tell me that they admire the Liverpool Dockers, but I used to say that it's you people that the Liverpool Dockers admire, because you are our lifeblood, you are our supporters and without you we wouldn't be here fighting today.
But it was a halfway thing because in order for you to actually win they would have had to go further than they did
Brian: yeah, quite true
I mean for example, they would have had to say "ok next week when you have your picket we're going to be there".
Brian: Yeah, and we did find that when we called our mass pickets there wasn't as many as I would have expected. The initial ones were quite good. Those people who did come down to the mass pickets were the real supporters who would be prepared to do anything to support us. And one of the criticisms why they wouldn't go to any more mass pickets, was they felt it was a waste of time going down there and just standing and watching wagons and scabs go in. They felt that they had to do something positive, and they were prepared to get arrested if necessary. And once again, the stewards didn't seem to want people arrested, they didn't want disorder, and I can agree. They wanted a clean strike, they wanted the people on our side so that there'd be no criticism of our tactics. But what's the point of calling mass pickets if you're not going to do anything? You know the idea of a mass picket is to stop the production inside that Port of Liverpool. There was one particular one where it was teeming down with rain, we stood outside the Seaforth Gate for a couple of hours, and then we all marched down to the Elmhouse to confuse the police, or to upset them. But the idea wasn't to upset the police, the idea was to go and take action against the Dock Company. And I think we would have got a lot more support if there had been action. That's what they came down for, to take action on our behalf, and that action was stifled.
Because it was felt that it would be counterproductive if you got lots of arrests?
Brian: Yeah, I think the stewards saw the mass pickets as a demonstration, not an action. But there were lots of us who felt towards the end of the dispute when we were blocking gates and things like that, and two and three coppers would come in a van and tell us to move on, and we just moved away, you know like pussycats, it was as though we didn't want to win it. In the early days of the dispute you'd have a couple of van loads of police and they were trying to force us off the gates and we were forcing them back, and admittedly people got arrested. I was arrested meself at one stage. But I couldn't see the point in attempting to block the dock gates, going standing there for two minutes, three policemen come in a van and say "come on boys, move onto the pavement," and everybody moves away like pussycats.
When did that attitude develop?
Brian: About 9 months ago. I don't know whether it was something to do with the financial situation, where lads were getting arrested and they were getting fined and it was a drain on our resources, and obviously I do agree that that money was best used for other purposes like relieving the hardship of the men and sending people out to spread the news about what was happening in the dispute and trying to drum up solidarity, but I think we could have put up more of a fight in respect to those pickets.
How was the debate carried on by those of you who thought it should be a more active action?
Brian: Well I think in all honesty we've got to share a lot of the blame. We did personally now and again go and speak to stewards and say "why are we doing this, why don't we go and do that?" and they'd explain their reasons and we'd say we didn't agree. But we never pushed it. We'd take their word for it. If we really wanted it carried forward, we've got to share some of the blame ourselves. And the place to do it was at the meetings. You've been to some of those meetings yourself and you've heard the stewards would ask "any questions?" And people were afraid to get up and criticise, and to tell the stewards they were taking the wrong direction or something. I don't know why, because nobody would have threatened anybody. We were democratic and nobody would have said "you so and so, you said this and you said that". There was just a reluctance on the part of the men to speak out against the stewards. And we've got to bear some of the blame. I can lay my hands on my heart and say "I share some of that blame".
What do you think you were up against in the dispute, aside from the company?
Brian: Well, I think we were definitely up against the Government. There was a lot more at stake to this dispute than a lot of people will admit. I think it's going to come out in the future. Because this was the dispute of the last 17 years, and had we won this, conditions in the workplace were going to change, people were going to get confidence to fight back. And I think the Government definitely didn't want us to win, both the Conservative Government and the Labour Government. I think had we won it, the anti-trade union laws would have gone out the window.
What about the union? Did they want you to win?
Brian: I think they might have liked us to have won, but I don't think they had the will. I think the unions are more or less controlled by the parties in power, and there's a lot goes on probably that we don't know about, and when they started negotiating this dispute, they never negotiated jobs. All they negotiated was money, so basically all they wanted was to get it out of the way, pushed under the table. And if we'd have walked away in 12 months ago with 30,000 and maybe a few jobs, they were quite happy with that. So they didn't have the same will that we had to get 500 men back inside those dock gates.
But they were supposedly negotiating on behalf of the stewards.
Brian: They were supposed to be.
How did that work? The stewards obviously wanted reinstatement. So the union was negotiating after instructions from the stewards but they would only negotiate for money?
Brian: Yeah, but we don't know what took place at those meetings. We'd get report backs and they'd say well this happened and that happened, but we don't know actually what did happen. And that's why we always thought it was essential that stewards were sitting in on those meetings so they could get their little bit in. Unfortunately the Dock Company wouldn't talk to them, and you know the T&G was in a position where they could have said "now listen, either you have meaningful talks with us about reinstatement, either you have shop stewards in on this discussions, or we are going to call out other members, other sections and we're going to really hit you" but they didn't have that will to do that. Whether it's they just want a quiet life or whether they're living in a different world than ourselves, they've forgotten what trade unionism is about, I don't know but I honestly don't think they went in there and negotiated jobs.
I don't think so either. Do you think there is any way the membership can regain control of the unions, or gain control of the unions?
Brian: Well it has happened, hasn't it, because if you look at the UPS, there was a guy over recently from the States, Peter Camarata, now I happened to attend a few meetings where he was speaking and I did get to speak to Peter afterwards. He belonged to a group for a more democratic union at the UPS, and they actually regained control of their union from the Mafia. So I'm sure if they can do that, we can regain control of our own union, but I think it's got to come from below. It's no good joining a union and having no say in what goes on, and debates being stifled. It's like being in the Labour Party at the moment where there's certain issues you can't debate, things that's going to embarrass the leadership, and it seems to me that the unions are getting the same way. So people have got to put their feet down and say "enough's enough". And once again, if we don't get our way, occupy the buildings, make them listen to us and let's find the means and the mechanisms to get rid of the people who won't stand up for the members.
Is that a fight that you see yourself continuing to be a part of?
Brian: Well at the moment I'm only a rank and file member, I'm not on any bodies. But I would think, I would like to see our shop stewards who are involved in the Executives and things like that to be pushing for that kind of thing. But at the moment I've no desire to be involved in Executive Committees, but if called upon as a rank and file member to support those issues I certainly would and I'd campaign for them as well.
You said you thought it took far too long to break with the union leadership.
Brian: Yeah, I think it should have been made clear from the off to Bill Morris that we were sacked for defending trade union principles and we expected the T&G to fight for our reinstatement. And from the very off we should have been campaigning within the union to get that support and I think had we done that, and particularly regarding Bill Morris and the ITF, I think it could have been a possibility that this dispute could have been won in the early stages, or a decent settlement could have been achieved. Also we have to recognise that while the stewards were saying "500 men reinstated", there were a lot of men who didn't want to go back inside those gates. And I think, had the stewards let it be known that they were prepared to find out how many men did actually want to go back, and how many men wanted to take retirement with dignity, I think there would have been room for manoeuvre. But as it was we didn't leave any room for manoeuvre. It was a great principle, "reinstatement for everybody", but we knew in our own hearts and souls that not everybody wanted to go back.
Certainly in the meetings and I assume it was made clear in the negotiations that it would be reinstatement for the purpose of the pensions, followed by retirement
Brian: Retirement with dignity
I felt that point did come out. But ok, does it just come down to Morris, or is there more to it than Morris?
Brian: Oh I think there's a quite a few people inside the hierarchy of the union who were actively working against us. One particular one is Margaret Prosser. I'm not so sure about Jack Adams. He came over as a nice genial guy, but it reminds me of when somebody's being interrogated and you have a bit of a bastard of a policeman and a nice policeman who's on your side. Jack Adams reminds me of the nice fella, the father figure who comes over nice and he stuck by us. But I don't think he was 100%, I'd say he was maybe 95% but I think
95% what?
Brian: You know, with us. But I think the hierarchy of the union, they're career people. They've forgotten what the shop floor's about. They've forgotten what struggle's about, and they're out to get on as far as they can within the framework of the T&G and they don't want things like this messing it up for them. So I wouldn't say it was just Bill Morris. He represents his archangels as well.
Ok Brian, I think we've pretty well covered it. Is there anything else you want to say?
Brian: Only my own feelings about it. I am sad at the way it ended, but I can recognise the hardship of the other men, there were men who were going to lose their houses, there were people who just didn't have the will to win it and I couldn't condemn them men, because I think they did give their all. Whatever line you took at the end of the dispute whether you voted to end it or not, I'll never forget the men that I stood with and they'll always be part of me. I've got to admire the resilience of the men, because it was really only in the last six months that the spirit began to sap, and you've got to admire that for two years the men were resolute and they stuck it out, and it takes some doing that.
Did they start losing heart at the 2 year Anniversary?
Brian: Yeah, I think after the 2 year milestone had been passed, people then couldn't see an end to it. And they visualised themselves here in another 12 months time, and some fellas were saying "well once it goes past a certain date I'm away". So two things, the stewards kept us together during the two and a half years really, and the resilience of the men, and it's very admirable to think that a body of men can stick out for that long. Admittedly the support from the people you know around the world and the country was amazing, but at the end of the day
It came down to the men themselves, obviously. The timing is important because in some ways the best things happened in that last period. The Biennial Delegate Conference was quite an achievement, the international action on the 8th of September was also because despite the ITF saying "we're not going to have anything to do with this", you did manage to get quite a lot of support. Right after the 2nd Anniversary you had the Neptune Jade starting the day after your demo in Liverpool, and then you went down to Sheerness on the Monday and that was a real picket.
Brian: Then a couple of days later they had the occupation of the gantries in Cardiff, and I was on the ground but I was co-ordinating events down there.
On the 8th of September you had the Belfast dockers involved, showing that people in the T&G were actually prepared to say "the hell with Morris, we're going to do it anyway". And then you won the ballot.
Brian: Yeah, I think it was a master stroke by the Dock Company, by leaving it open. You know the ballot result was announced and then within minutes the Dock Company was leaving it open to a certain date, and that hit me right in the gut because I knew why they done it, they wanted to split the men and I felt "God, you know if we get all these people" there was about 100 men who voted to accept what was on offer, if that 100
But they didn't all go.
Brian: No, no so
At least half of those people said "We accept the democratic decision of the ballot" so that was good. And then you had the Dublin picket immediately after so you had a whole run of very strong things.
Brian: Oh it was brilliant, because every bit of good news that we heard did boost men's morale. Some things were done quietly so we didn't know until days after and they'd be "oh we're really made up they've occupied the gantries at such a place," or "they've done this" so yeah, morale was high.
So when did it really start to go then?
Brian: Well I think after all those events took place, there was nothing happening. Everything we'd flung at the dock company, the international support, the days of action, you know the international one day strikes and all these pickets hitting them in various places, and yet everything we seemed to do just had no effect, they were just able to sit back there and take it all on the chin. And we'd look, and we'd see ships still coming in, and it seemed to be a period where the gantries were more and more down than they were up, and I think basically that was when the rot started setting in.
so November.
Brian: yeah. That lobby (of the T&GWU General Executive Council) in December was a very important lobby and I think the funds was involved, to send everybody down there with their families and that but in the past we have actually gone to other unions and organisations and asked them to fund buses for us and they were happy to do it. We should have sent all our families down there and called upon political organisations and trade unions, and it should have been a really massive lobby and we would got those motions debated and I think we would have actually got them through as well.
Well whether you would have got them through or not it would have been a very good idea.
Brian: Yeah, because it puts in people's minds particularly the Executive, when they see a handful of people down there, "are these serious about this?"
So why didn't that happen, was it just a question of money or was it something else?
Brian: I think the money played a part in it but I think throughout the dispute from Day One, there has been a bit of a reluctance on the stewards' part to attack the leadership of the union. I know it's not very nice to be seen to be fighting against your own union, but whatever organisation you belong to whether it be a trade union or whatever, if there's something that's not right, it's got to be put right and you've got to make your voice heard.
But there was quite a fight at the Biennial Delegate Conference. The response from the floor was actually so strong that the Chair lost control of the meeting. And that suggests that there was the potential for a big response inside the T&G. Did you feel that?
Brian: I felt that. In fact I was very surprised when I seen speaker after speaker getting up and promoting our cause. And the number of Dockers t-shirts that were on display within the T&G showed me the type of solidarity that we did have. But this is magnified around the country. I've seen it first hand because I used to do the delegation work, and I used to see that, not only in the T&G but in every union. We needed that at that last Executive meeting in December.
It is amazing that Morris prevented any discussion from actually taking place.
Brian: Yeah I find it hard to believe that he can actually do such a thing and get away with it in what's supposed to be a democratic union. A union which was set up by workers to defend the interest of workers, and they seem to be just like the Government at the moment, the line of "let's keep things quiet". They talk about things like partnership with the employers. Well the Dock Company showed us what they think of partnership when they sacked us. I think most employers today feel the same, and it's amazing the way the pendulum has really swung. Because since the anti-trade union laws have been introduced, nearly every employer seems to have become more hard line in their attitude, and the likes of Bill Morris and all these other union leaders should be there fighting under that flag, proper conditions in the workplace, proper jobs, not casual work, and they're just sitting idly by and letting that take place and not doing anything to fight it.
I think we've got to admit that we've made mistakes ourselves, we're only human, we're only men. I think one of the big mistakes was expecting the Labour Government to get involved in this. Towards the General Election we were saying "well the Government have only got so long to go and then we'll have a Labour Government in and it will be a completely different climate". But I think anybody with any sense could see the signs that things weren't going to change under Labour. Tony Blair had been saying the unions can expect no favours, "fairness but no favours". So I think he made it pretty clear where he was going, and towards the end of the Tory Government I think we had all our eggs in one basket there. We were going to put a little bit of pressure on Labour, and they were going to say "get this sorted". And that was one of the mistakes that we made.
Tony Blair, one of his pre-election promises was that he was going to give people trade union rights, and now it looks like he's bowing to pressure from the CBI for a 50% majority of people to vote for this in their workplace. So I think in the future you're going to see a lot more disputes, because there is disquiet amongst people, and I think there is going to be calls for solidarity. And if people want change, particularly in the workplace, and particularly in social issues, they've got to respond to those calls for solidarity.
